I was watching this addictive British dark drama “Luther” I bought on itunes and it got to me reflect on something...
The main character of the show, Luther, is a detective played by a dark skinned black man (great actor, btw, his character is totally fascinating).
What I found amazingly different from American shows, is that there is no reference to his race anywhere in the show. No mention regarding his wife being of a different race, no background on how being black shaped him, to his “belonging” anywhere, no special behaviors attributed to him because of his race, no mentioning of “overcoming” something as a black man... nothing of the sort.
Basically, he is just treated and seen as a man, not as a “black man” by every other character on the show, and, therefore, by the viewer. Comparing to American shows, I found that amazing!
If you watched the show and you are an American, you’d probably understand what I’m talking about. I don’t know anything about race relations in England, but from this show it seems very different.
In our society, it is implied that history has shaped that man or woman personally, that people belong to a different culture based on their skin color, and that a person of different skin color will never really understand or belong.
That separates people, maybe not intentionally, but there is a psychological effect to emphasizing ones race, positively or negatively, it still tells people that they are different because of their skin color. It is the lesson we learn from school age.
What is racism at the basic root of it if not seeing a person through the color prism of their skin?
Is celebrating accomplishments of black people a completer reversal of having negative stereotypes, or does it contribute to teaching that there is a difference?
But again, what do I know, I’m not black.
Anyway, these are just some random thoughs... It bothered me that I found it so unusual that a character was treated like a character and just seen as a person, not as defined by his race. That it is more of an exception in the shows that I've seen than the rule. So I wanted post my thoughts and find out what other people think. (I hope it won't blow up into something ugly.)
Defining people by race?
November 18th, 2011 at 04:51 pm
November 18th, 2011 at 05:16 pm 1321636574
Years ago, my American born, now Aussie citizen SIL had seen the Crocodile Dundee movie both in Australia and in the USA. She told me that it was interesting to see how the two audiences did not always laugh at the same points. Humor was specialized to both audiences independently and quietly flew over the heads of the other audience. She thought the movie was well crafted to be able to do that without interrupting the flow for either audience.
One can only see what one is conditioned to see. (?)
November 18th, 2011 at 06:04 pm 1321639444
There aren't too many issues for black Britons, at least according to my British husband. There were some weird cultural holdovers like these racist-caricature dolls (Gollywogs) that lasted far longer than they would have in America (his gran still has some on a shelf!), and they actually had a blackface TV "minstrel" show that lasted into the 1980s!! But I think that speaks more to how there was less of a negative association with black people overall so less sensitivity than here.
Probably the racial group that faces the most bigotry in England is Pakistanis. I hardly ever see them depicted in the British crime dramas I love to watch, nor really many of the shows at all. Maybe the discrimination there is lack of portrayal at all, rather than the stereotypical portrayal here?
The effects of race-based slavery in America (and of the disastrous Reconstruction period) go so deep, into people's chances, their expectations of a free and fair life, etc. I'm afraid if we tried to pretend there were no differences, we'd just sweep the ongoing struggles under the rug.
November 18th, 2011 at 06:16 pm 1321640198
Unless it's a plot point for some reason, there is never anything said about them being black.
There are more white leading men than non-white in Hollywood, certainly, but I can't say if that ratio is any different in the UK. It certainly doesn't preclude the presence of a black leading man in an excellent show in either country.
I think people tend to see what they want to see in these cases.
Plus, when I lived in London I saw plenty of racism. It was just different races. There is a whole different history in Europe that is vastly different from ours. Even in the days of slavery in America, black people could move to Europe and be successful and integrated.
November 18th, 2011 at 06:18 pm 1321640287
And I love Luther too. For one, Idris Elba is a fantastic actor and he's gorgeous. I think the violence is a bit much for me sometimes, but Alice fascinates me.
I can't wait for more on Netflix.
November 18th, 2011 at 06:34 pm 1321641295
November 18th, 2011 at 06:47 pm 1321642053
November 19th, 2011 at 10:02 am 1321696938
We also have a reversal racism problem in regards to treatment of Australian aboriginals (stolen generation etc). They receive so many benefits to a Point where they aren't required to work (i have known several) and in some cases are better off than white Australian families with two parents working. I'm not saying this as though they don't deserve it or as though I want it; certainly not. But it has unfortunately created a shift where there is little motivation for trying to succeed or work hard. Instead they spend their days unsatisfied and many turn to alcohol and other sources for distraction.
November 21st, 2011 at 05:58 pm 1321898301
Ceejay, the "rarely comes up" or never comes up is a big difference, in my opinion. It is the "never" part that really impressed me.
So are you saying you did not notice the difference?
November 21st, 2011 at 08:36 pm 1321907780
But there are a few black characters in US shows who fall under the "Never" category. Of the ones I mentioned above, only Hardison has (sort of) had an episode that had to do with his being black. (I say "sort of" because he and some other cast members played other characters in flashbacks that portrayed a forbidden love between black and white characters in the 1940s. It wasn't really his character, who is in love with a white woman in the show and that racial difference is never commented on.)
So I would say the big difference is that overall, most UK shows never feature a black person's race as a big plot point. There are some US shows that frequently do, some US shows that rarely do, and yes, there are a few US shows that NEVER do. It does happen.
November 30th, 2011 at 06:39 pm 1322678355
November 30th, 2011 at 07:01 pm 1322679672
"I'm afraid if we tried to pretend there WERE NO DIFFERENCES, we'd just sweep the ONGOING STRUGGLES under the rug."
Are you kidding me? WERE as in past tense? Correct me if I'm wrong. DO you really feel as if "racism" is finished and that its a thing of past, Well your wrong very wrong! Its still here and still exists on every level imaginable. I just thought I'd point that out to you! No white person could ever understand the problems and struggles US individuals of color(meaning chinese,hispanic,lebanese,indians,and anyone else of color for that matter) have to face and encounter on a daily basis! So no comments should be made about the topic of "racism" unless one has lived it in their own lives. Interesting topic though!
November 30th, 2011 at 10:24 pm 1322691853
December 1st, 2011 at 04:00 am 1322712047
I don't deny that there is a race divide in the US, I was just wondering if emphasizing the difference and stereotyping people in a race=culture way contributes to this divide? Do we perpetuate this cycle by teaching from young age that this is a separate culture that is based on skin color? ( Is this not racism? ) Is this a good lesson to continue teaching?
JPerry, I don't believe that any topic should ever be of limits, be it race, religion, or anything else. That is how we grow, educate and inform ourselves, and if accepting the premise that certain things must be just accepted and not to be discussed, then it is an intellectual copout.
As far as personal experience with race, it can be subjective. How can one tell what is real, and what is the matter of perception?
When I searched for work for month after month after graduating from college and didn't get interviews, if I was black I would probably have thought that it was so hard because of my race. I am sure I would have. It was hard and frustrating and I was looking for reasons and questioning everything. If I am not black, I'll think it is my accent, or my foreign sounding last name, or anything else. After all, it is a human tendency to find an explanation that will make it someone else's fault, beyond our control. And to some extent it can be true, however it does not relieve me from responsibility for my own life. It could also be that there were many candidates with more experience... the thing is I may never know the reason.
If you are having trouble making close friends and fitting in with other moms in the neighborhood, would you assume they don't accept you because of your race? It could be they already have a tight group that is settled, are reserved, or you just don't personally connect with them. All of these things happen to everyone, it is just the explanations we give ourselves differ. And these explanations can be wrong. We just don't know.
My husband is Asian (and btw, Chinese is not a race, and most Asians would say that such grouping to is a racist comment) and he does not think he encountered any discrimination due to his race. BTW, he is the kindest, warmest and smartest guy I ever met and he is a pleasure to be around. Maybe that has something to do with it.
And I absolutely don't believe that a biracial child is a misfit in this world. This is archaic thinking, and besides, there is no special "club" that gives you a ticket at birth to complete acceptance. (That kind of deep connection is very hard to come by in life, and takes a lot of work.) Your relationships with your friends, family, colleagues, everyone you encounter in your life are a combination of your personality and circumstances with theirs. Some people are bias and close-minded, but how most people treat you depends on you.
We are an interracial family (I never really thought about it) and I don't remember encountering any issues due to that. Certainly not life impacting issues.
December 1st, 2011 at 03:41 pm 1322754112
The origin of race is a term that is related to different animals, such as the Human race, or a race of dogs, or cats. It is specifically related to the fundamental differences between different species. Ethnic background, on the other hand is determined by the different Ideals, nationalities, and in some cases is determined by the color of skin in the region. take, for example, the Chinese, Japanese, and other Asian nations. They are darker than white people, but lighter than, say, an African. They also practice different religion, and have differing social structures than each other. That is the fundamental difference between them.
So I may conclude that RACE definitely relates to one's culture and definitely skin color and attributes. I am a very strong believer in one taking responsibility for ones own life, I also know the difference between "Choice" and "Ignorance" and some do make that choice to be ignorant which is what "being racist" truly means. Yes all of us should never stop learning and questioning life but I hold strong to the fact that a "white" person will NEVER understand any issues related to racism due to fact that they don't have these same issues and never will.Example: My mother(which is white) works around predominately whites and she shared with me the fact they these whites are always talking down on blacks all the time that's why she has never disclosed the fact that she has "biracial" children due to feeling she will not be "accepted" and due to having so called "black" children her family has disowned her we don't even know our own family due to their "ignorance" which again is simply one "being racist" Our black side of the family "accepts" us just fine and without any issues, so to conclude this topic I can and will readily admit that to me it seems justifiable to say that the "white" majority are the closed minded individuals and that the "black" majority are the more understanding ones in this matter, Why? Is because WE understand what racism FEELS like because WE are products of it. (products meaning dealt with and still dealing with it now today) SEE you fail to understand that no matter which way we turn or mirror WE decide to look in WE will always be to some "The color of our skin"
December 2nd, 2011 at 05:35 pm 1322847330
@jpharris - honestly, your comments come off as racist, to me. I think our experiences are largely shaped by our environment. I am sure your experience has been very real and hurtful. But if you think there is no white person in the world that has ever experienced any racism? I am white and have personally grown up in the racial minority. & who do I know that is not inter-racial? Who even takes notice of that? My perspective is just very different. (When you live n the midst of 100 different cultures, the majority of marriages/kids are going to be bi-racial). I am sorry for your experience and I am sure it has shaped your opinions, but I do take offense to your comments. No one I know of any race, where I live, would ever say to me that they were more open minded because of the color of their skin (or any other label based on skin color). I am sorry for how it has been for you, but it does come across that you have labeled white people as one way, from your experience. I personally don't have any frame of reference to make those type labels. I know mean people, smart people, nice people, poor or rich, of all different skin colors.
I am sure Nika and I have absolutely no frame of reference when it comes to racial segregation. I have family in the mid-west and south so certainly have seen it. The experience is night and day to living in places like California and NYC. Here, we don't congregate based on our skin color. IT is true that we have friends and relatives and spouses of all skin colors who have never really experienced any racism. Just to point out that it is very real and possible.
To be clear - I am not denying racism. I am just pointing out that some of us do not live in the same type environment.
December 2nd, 2011 at 07:27 pm 1322854061
Argument on the clarification of RACISM:
“Professor D…do you think black people can be racist by definition?”
Race is a societal construction based on physical characteristics. According to the American Association of Physical Anthropologists, “the term race or racial group usually refers to the categorization of humans into populations or groups on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics.” If we focus on the term “heritable,” we will learn that this idea is concerned with phenotypic variation in a population that results in genetic variation among individuals (Wiki, 2010). THOUGH THIS INTERESTING INFORMATION, THIS BRINGS TO CONVERSATION TO A BIOLOGICAL LEVEL…AND THIS IS NOT THE FOCUS OF THIS PARTICULAR DISCUSSION.
Now, SOCIALLY, the concept of race gets a bit more interesting. Why? POWER. Plain and simple. Everybody wants Power. Everybody. Please be under no illusions about this. Most people want Liberty…and based on the research, a possession of POWER is a prerequisite for the possession of LIBERTY. I’m sure Patrick Henry would agree with me on this point.
Recognizing the role (social, economic, and political) POWER played in the creation of the racial hierachy in America, a person may be able to gain a clear and more historically accurate idea of race. The American racial hierarchy was constructed to serve the interests of those IN POWER. (To believe anything else, is nothing short of baffling.) The early American elite used race as a way in which to organize society. Through law, politics, money, and culture, those who were white were routed into social classes near POWER…and the darker your skin, the further removed from POWER you were. You were relegated to social positioning at the bottom of the social (power) hierarchy. In fact, America’s unique system of CHATTEL slavery created beings who were legally defined as less than human yet more than four-legged beast. The concise rhetorical label for this population of chattel was: Nigger. Summarily, it is here we understand race is SYNTHETIC. It is man-made. It is a way in which the elite organized society in the interest of protecting and perserving POWER.
RACISM
It is a verb. It should be understood as “race in motion.” Racism is the actual execution and protection of the current racial hierarchy. It is DEEPLY entrenched into the American social, legal, and economic system. Racism, in America, is cultural. It is NORMALIZED.
So….Professor D, do you think black people can be racist by definition?
Absolutely not.
BY DEFINITION, race WAS constructed, and IS maintained by people in power. In America, this means wealthy white people. There is not ONE black individual who has access to this social club. (OK, Oprah MAY have enough money to gain access…and IF she is participating in activities that maintain the current racial heirarchy…and IF she dedicated to protecting the interest of the current powerbrokers, THEN she MAY be racist.) I doubt any other black people qualify.
So, the argument I present is not in any way attempting to black people from racial slurs, racial prejudice, and race-baiting. BUT, I stand by the position that it is IMPOSSIBLE for black people to be RACIST because black people do not have access to the levels of POWER. Dick Gregory (1964) makes a similar case in his book Nigger. Race and racism are deeply connected to POWER…and that is something, frankly speaking, blacks in America don’t have much of, in economic, legal, and political forms.
So, to say that black people can be racist is one of two things (1.)a significant syntactic flaw; or (2.) the most racist thing I’ve ever heard.
Hope you've learned something new today.
Hopefully it's "The Power of Ignorance"
December 2nd, 2011 at 08:12 pm 1322856733
So it is okay for you to judge a whole race of people by the color of their skin? Even if it is white? This is where I strongly disagree. Whatever you said above does not take away from the fact that is how you come across.
Frankly, you know nothing about me. I am actually rather dark skinned and my race is not so simply identified as white. I just go with it, maybe because it is easy.
Ignorant, racist, and intolerant are hardly words I have ever been called. I Am sorry to have offended you so much. Frankly I Think it's impossible not to offend you.
The irony I find in a setting like this is no one knows what race or ethnicity any of us is unless we point it out. IT is clear from your interactions here in these forums that you are quick to judge and lash out. In a forum where color is so blind, no one is listening because of the way you come across.
I have nothing further to say here - I think we can just put each other on ignore. I truly apologize for offending you so deeply. But, it's also clear we will never have a logical and open discussion, probably on anything. So I think I will just ignore you and I am sure as heck you will be ignoring me.
December 2nd, 2011 at 11:40 pm 1322869222